I am going to add a lot more detail to the Mo Mo. I got some REALLY BAD ADVICE from a supposedly knowledgeable engine building, service and machine shop called "motor heads.". The advice was that I should not and or would not need an engine oil cooler..ie a radiator for oil cooling. I was told just plug the fittings on the engine. The logic was, I would not be racing the car or pushing it hard enough to heat the oil to the point of breakdown. I believed what I was told and basically did just what I was told. I got a couple of plugs to fit the threaded fittings on the block and put them in.
Since this was a used engine from ebay a logical question is, Was the engine bad to begin with? I have asked that of myself a number of times. During the purchase process I asked the seller this several times. He assured me each time that it was sound, undamaged. When I received it I went over it as much as possible. I saw no signs of tampering or disassembly. It was shipped dry ie no oil so I could not check that.
I still don't fully understand the mechanics of the oil pump and flow, but in essence I partially starved the engine of oil after I got the car to the point of being able to start it and during the course of the build for testing and shuffling in and out of the garage. Total run time was probably less than one hour but no more than an hour and a half and NEVER near full throttle.
Early in the spring of 2015 I was actually preparing the car for its first on the road test and drive. You can only imagine how pumped I was. I was checking all the fluids, lights, clutch and brakes. I had the car running. I still did not have the hood on the car as it was too big for me to handle alone. The doors and interior were ready but not installed.
As it was running, above the exhaust noise, I thought I heard a deep rumble or THUMPING. I set everything aside and started looking and feeling with my hands. The sound was such that I thought something was loose, bumping something. I kept looking over, under and around the car feeling and listening. I basically isolated the sound to the driver side front of the engine. Man did I have a knot in my stomach. I shut the car down! No knock, no thump, no nothing. Remembering an old mechanic's trick I got an OLD very long screwdriver. It has a full metal shaft with mushroom head and wood handle. The trick is to put your ear to the mushroom on the shaft, place the shaft of the screwdriver on/against the possible source of the sound as you touch and listen. Today there are stethoscopes for this.
I got a stool, a fender cover and started the car. For a bit of time there was no obvious noise. I set up the stool and cover and started down the valve cover on one side. Nothing! Re positioned to the other side. There was the noise without even using the screw driver! It sounded deep down. Did the screwdriver test down the other valve cover. Faint sound, but sounded deep down. Now what? I slipped as far under the car as I could fit and managed to get to the oil pan.
THUMPTHUMPTHUMP. Nearly sick to my stomach I shut the engine off. Through discussion and learning later about Viper engines the engine "grows" as it warms up. On a cold start, oil pressure is usually near 75-85 psi! Fully warmed up it is around 25 psi. What I was hearing was bearing clearance issues as it fully warmed up.
Not knowing the why at the time, I went to the shop that gave me the bad advice. I described what I was hearing. They said bad bearings or engine damage. Best way to find out was to remove the oil filter cut the shell off and drain it into a super clean pan. Then look for and feel for particles of metal. Also, put a magnet in the oil and pan to see if it there was iron based metal or non-metallic bearing metal. They said bring the filter in, they had a filter cutter. I did, they cut it and we found a fairly large quantity of non-magnetic grey particles and a a very few shiny metallic particles stuck on the magnet.
SCREWED!
The engine had to come out!!!! And I couldn't do it!! I installed the engine and transmission with no front clip. ie. no hood, fenders, inner fenders, radiators, core support, wiring, headlights, bumper, grill, turn signals, rock shield etc. Even worse, I had sold the engine hoist crane figuring I wouldn't need it. Even if I had it, it would not been able to lift the engine high enough to clear the core support. Further, the transmission was installed attached to the engine. Now it had to be detached from the bell housing and lowered down and out. Then the bell housing and then the clutch and pressure plate. I had no car lift and transmission jack/lift. Talk about a kick in the teeth!
I started looking for a competent shop that could do the work. I was shocked! There are very few shops today with the knowledge and equipment to do this kind of work. Today you plug in a computer and change a part or just scrap it. Today's engines last so long nobody bothers to fix them when they fail. Then there was the MAJOR problem of who had the knowledge, equipment and could tear down a Viper engine, analyze it and make the necessary repairs.
I found Arrow Racing, located in Auburn Hills, Michigan, could do the engine. I also found another racing engine builder near Arrow that could do 10 cylinder engines if Arrow couldn't. Arrow is literally an adjunct/contractor of Chrysler. They complete and dyno test EVERY Viper engine before it is installed in a VIPER. The people had all been Chrysler designers and builders before the bankruptcy. Their work would COST! In the end they did perform some of the work and it was through them that I learned VIPER and the reason the motor probably failed. My son and I also saw the preliminary test pieces/parts for Viper ARCs, including a full race test bed Viper, Drag Pack engines on the dyno, and Jeep 4 wheel drive differentials intentionally abused for the coming Trail Hawk/SRTs/Hellcat powered Jeeps. We saw a bit of video with a Jeep chained to a LARGE pipe cemented in the ground, in four wheel drive, FULL throttle!!
By phone Arrow basically said the following. Once the engine is out, tear it down. Look at the rod bearings and crank. The crank could probably be polished and oversize bearings could be installed. The problem was the camshaft and oil pump. The Viper engine was designed with the block as the bearing surface material for the cam shaft. If the damage was heavy enough it would have to be bored out and a custom camshaft with oversize bearing journals used. They said this was a common racing failure. They had replacement cams available. They also said many times a simple light grind and polish would take care of the cam bearing surfaces. A "standard" cam left slightly over size would work and they were available. The problem was who could polish or bore the cam bearings locally. If the oil pump was damaged the entire engine was toast.
The answer was ultimately no local shop had the equipment that could handle a V-10 engine. The other shop near Arrow said the same thing regarding salvaging the engine. They made the cams in house and would be as least a grand more.
So the next steps were to find a local shop equipped well enough to remove the engine and transmission, tear down the engine and assess the damage. Obviously a Plan B was needed if the engine was junk. There was a lot of running shop to shop and searching on the internet. The internet yielded some three appropriate plan B engines at 6.5k to 8k! All would require parts from my engine as well as new parts. None had the accessories, headers, brackets etc. All required additional shipping, none had any assurance that they were any good. They only reported mileage before salvage. One had been test run before removal from the wreck.
As for local shops after many referrals I found two. I should have been less impatient. less cost conscious and gone with my gut feelings. The first shop was a restoration shop that specialized in foreign, premium car re-powering and restoration. They had an impeccable reputation. Their pricing was firm. They could not give me a firm date when they could start on my car. All they could give me was an approximation.
I should have stuck with my gut feeling. The other shop was a two man operation, many years of experience and knew of a local small engine machine and rebuild shop competent enough to tear down the motor, diagnose it and rebuild it. It did mean two shops involved. Based on a verbal quote and hourly rate he was cheaper and could start immediately. He also had a back barn for storage so it would not tie up his two (2) bay shop. SOLD. MY BAD DECISION. The impeccable shop called the two days after the car was moved!
Beginning from the moment the car was picked up the whole operation went down hill. In my mind, I kind of wonder if seeing my home and neighborhood (middle class, newer development) as the car was being picked up had anything to do with it. So as soon as the car was loaded up, the shop owner was talking about MORE MONEY. He was also pissed that I had removed the exhaust system, disconnected the wiring, radiator, floor piece, drive shaft and anything else I could see to facilitate easier removal of the engine and transmission. NOTE: The early Gen 2 Viper had a two part headers. By removing the turn out section it then became a lifting lug for engine removal. The later Gen 2's did not have that. I had fabricated two plates and lifting lugs which bolted up to block when the headers were removed. I had put then back on. My reasoning was that I had put this thing together, that was so unique in many places that I was helping speed the process. Anyway, he and his helper had the engine and transmission out in two days.
He demanded that he and I go to the machine shop. I said sure. Once there, he and that rebuilder started in on money! We talked about a replacement motor versus rebuilding this one. They were both pressing money issues. We finally agreed that the shop would tear the motor down at his standard hourly rate lay everything out, access it and call me with the findings.
On the way back to the mechanic/owners shop I was informed that he was no longer interested in the job and wanted the car out of storage ASAP!! I was SHOCKED AND STUNNED to say the least! When I got home I called the machine shop to be sure he was going to continue with his end of the bargain. He said yes. At a minimum, WOO!
Within a day or two I had the car back at home after being forced, approaching ugly, full section by section inspection and a crudely written form acknowledging the car had no damage. The owner even gave the tow truck driver grief even though they knew each other.
A day or two later the machine shop called and said he wanted to see me, to review what he had found. I went and we reviewed his findings. He was doing his best showing me various parts and explaining them to me as if I knew nothing. I did not take offense as most guys have never seen the inside of an engine.
The news was bad but not as bad as it could have been. As suspected the bearings were shot. The cam was scored and not usable. He did not have the equipment to do any repairs on the block/cam bearing surfaces. We went over the oil pump, it was OK. The crank needed polishing and his equipment could do it. I told him about Arrow and their services. He said he was more than willing to do the engine if they could do the block/cam work. We both thought the best course of action was to rebuild rather than get another salvage motor.
I contacted Arrow, got a quote with a low and worst case scenario and set a time and date. I drove the three plus hours up to Auburn Hills and dropped off the block, crank mains, bolts and other parts they requested. Within minutes of arriving several techs had checked the cam bearing surfaces, block and other parts and said a light grind/hone was all that was necessary. As I said we, got a full tour, written estimate and delivery date. A day or two later, they called and said they found a cam in inventory, a little cheaper and a little better than stock that they hadn't known they had on the shelf. They said they were going to do some other block work and checking gratis. They ended up five weeks later than promised. Mid-October versus early September. I went back up and brought the block back to the machine shop.
Now with no shop to reinstall the engine and transmission what do I do? First, I gave the machine shop the go ahead to do the rebuilt. I gave him a list Arrow had provided with all the clearances for bearings and torque specs for the nuts and bolts. They were in some cases different from those published by Chrysler. They also gave a list of part manufacturers with better stuff and possibly cheaper as well as phone numbers. They also said call this number at their shop if he need help or had questions during the reassembly! WOW!
Now for a reinstall shop. The original plan was for the engine to be rebuilt and reinstalled by the first shop, then test started and checked top to bottom. Rather than start over I went to the shop that was two days late responding. They said they would be more than happy to do the work NEXT SPRING! They had taken in several cars for rebuild and had no space. After a lot of discussion and them asking questions we agreed on price and time table. Their primary concern, and mine too, was the engine. Ok, it is rebuilt but was it done right? Since it could not go in the car when rebuilt what could be done? It couldn't sit for six months or more then call the machine shop and say something was wrong.
I gave them my Viper Crate Engine book and Chrysler Viper Service Tech books. They did use them,
I also gave them the ARROW number if needed.
As soon as I picked up the completed engine I took it to the new shop. They set aside other work and started the inspections almost soon as I dropped it off. The new shop said they had an engine test stand they could alter and put the Viper engine on and run it testing everything. As it turned out they couldn't use the stand as planned.. Wrong computer and the Viper does everything in the opposite direction and they couldn't run it. They came up with plan B. They had the necessary equipment to oil up the engine, use the starter and an electric motor with pulley to spin it, check oil pressure etc. (Arrow had recommended a high zinc oil for the break-in. They used Shell Rotella or Valvoline Racing. I got a good price on the Valvoline.) When fully oiled do a full valve train check followed a cylinder by cylinder compression check. They called the machine shop who agreed to the inspection/testing and then we waited for parts, assembly etc. There were delays including needing an additional intake manifold gasket set. I found out later that those gaskets slip down during installation and are instantly ruined. The shop had to wait two weeks for a set. They are normally sold as part of a complete rebuild set.
HURRY UP AND WAIT! Six months.
When it was finally time to move the car to the shop I was really pumped! What could go wrong? The car had been "up and running" I got a local flatbed to haul it over to the shop and followed it over. The guys (owner and chief helper) wanted all the parts I had, starting with the transmission, clutch etc brought over. The following day I loaded and moved everything for the car to the shop. Along with that I had loaded much of the all smaller stuff in the trunk. I asked for permission to work on the car since I knew the quirks, ins and outs. To my surprise they said yes!. They did say, not until the engine and transmission were in. That was more than ok with me.
Within two days they called there was a problem. Come on over. The engine was in. The transmission bell housing would not fit. The dowel pins for the engine/transmission were missing. That was minor. The bell housing was misaligned by .050. It was bent or distorted. When I mated the transmission on the engine I did know there were supposed to be dowel pins. The bell housing had come with the transmission. I had thrown away another housing that had been loosely bolted to the engine. It had a HUGE crack and chunk missing. When I put the transmission on the engine sans dowel pins it had bolted together just fine. The shop using my books and their sources found a used bell housing that would work. The restoration shop I hooked up with was a TREASURE TROVE of knowledge and connections, domestic and foreign! BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!
In the meantime, as I said I had learned a lot about VIPER power trains. Remember the transmission came from an '06 Ram SRT 10 Viper engined truck? The transmission is a newer version of the Viper Tremec 5660.
I learned all of the following during the reinstall when things would not fit together. American Power Train the supposed premier aftermarket Tremec seller knows nothing about Viper Tremec transmissions. The original Viper Tremec transmission was designed from scratch specifically for the Viper and later adapted for Vette, Mustang, and Ford. Tremec was bought, sold and combined during the recession. None of the other Tremec specialized sellers knew anything either. The after market slave cylinder manufacturers folded as well in the slow down. Their phone numbers were useless. .
In the truck, Chrysler used a smaller clutch and pressure plate and a smaller plastic bodied slave cylinder in the Tremec 5760 transmission. They also used a smaller bore master hydraulic cylinder for the clutch. When everything was given back to me when I was "thrown" out of the shop I was told the slave cylinder might be leaking. He wasn't sure. He also said the pressure plate needed to be refinished as there was overheated spots. I took the pressure plate to a good transmission shop and they checked it, said they could grind and polish it for $35.00. I left it and had it back in two days.
I could see no obvious leaks on the slave cylinder. I looked at Roe Racing, a Viper specialty racing parts/shop in Florida. They had a kit for $600.00 + for the trucks to replace the slave and master cylinders. Looking and checking carefully they were the stock Viper/Mopar parts. At a higher price! Of course! A Viper specialty shop near Buffalo told me as much and they had a list of cross compatible brands.. After a lot of thought, for and against replacement I ordered an aftermarket brand name viper slave cylinder after seeing Truck and Viper owner comments on their respective club sites.
What NO ONE SAID OR KNEW was that switching these parts required the Viper hydraulic line and that it had different factory fitting. On either master cylinder the line was permanently connected to the master cylinder. This lead to a lot of consternation and LOST TIME when it was time to reinstall everything in the car. I had a truck master cylinder and a Viper slave. The line had a different factory fitting at the transmission! We figured this all out laying on our backs during the reassembly: and lost more than a week trying to figure it out.
Originally, I had purchased a Ram SRT clutch master cylinder from a local Dodge dealer who was giving me discounts before Chrysler's bankruptcy. Ultimately Chrysler forced them to close. I had built the brake booster mounting box to accommodate the Ram clutch master cylinder size and length. The viper master cylinder has a bigger bore for more pressure for the clutch and pressure plate. It is longer and uses a remote fill tank. It would not fit in the space I had created during the brake booster install. Remember in WHOA I described the box and fittings for the brake booster and clutch pedals.
Not previously mentioned in this blog was the fact I had found a Viper Car and Parts Salvage Yard in Minnesota. I had ordered a number of parts from them. After I/we figured out the problem with master cylinder line fitting I called Minnesota and got a super cheap price on a very low mileage Viper master cylinder and line. Knowing full well it would not fit, I replaced the truck clutch master cylinder with a Wilwood Compact Kit master cylinder. The bore is one (1") inch. Bigger even than the Viper bore. Plenty of pressure to activate the clutch. It fit like a glove behind the brake booster. The kit included bits and pieces for a hydraulic line. When the Viper part arrived I cut the line and used the kit pieces and had a working line. Scrapping the truck master cylinder and replacing it with the Wilwood unit and buying the used viper piece was the cheapest way out and required no major rebuilding or fabrication.
With all this out of the way and ALOT of $$$$ spent, we successfully started and ran the car in the shop. To this point, I don't think I mentioned the doors weren't on and the interior wasn't complete either. I got a flatbed truck and had the car loaded up and brought home in the early spring of 2017.
Friends and family along the way would often ask me when the car would be finished? I would laugh and joke that either the car would finish me or I would finish it!
WHO'S WINNING?
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